Welcome to today’s installment of Reverent Sundays, where I write about an aspect of my faith. This can deal with recent books I have read on Christianity, my thoughts on religion and current issues, as well as particular messages I find touching and/or powerful. I am aware that most of my readers are not religious, and that is fine — you are more than welcome to not read these posts if they make you uncomfortable, enrage you, or bore you to tears. I am open to debates and discussions in the comments section as long as everyone remains respectful. Enjoy!
Earlier this week, Jenna of That Wife fame wrote a very moving and eloquent piece on her changed views on homosexuality.
I am extremely happy for Jenna — I think that she is making some very brave and intelligent steps in improving herself and her life by challenging and questioning her belief systems.
Reading what she has written, in addition to the numerous comments the post received, I realized that I have never thoroughly talked about my views on homosexuality on this blog. Yes, visitors have brought it up various times on my past posts on Christianity, and I have tried my best to answer those questions. But I have never outright stated, in a post, what my position on homosexuality is as a Protestant Christian who believes the Bible is true and complete.
And I feel the need to say this because it is a view I have not seen openly shared by many people, at least in my (mostly very liberal) social circle or among my internet friends…even within the Christian blogs I read and study!
So here it goes.
Let’s start with a bit about my background. I was raised in a Christian home and attended church since I was born. However, there was a period in my life — a few years in my early twenties — when I would be best described as an agnostic and distanced myself from the church.
What made me return to the church was my studying and challenging various belief systems. I took religious courses, read numerous books, and spoke to those with different beliefs and walks of life. I even researched famous atheists like Richard Dawkins and the late Christopher Hitchens. But after gathering all this knowledge, what eventually happened was that I not only returned, but also began to embrace the Christian faith even more than I ever had before.
Do I believe that homosexuality is a sin? Yes. There are both Old and New Testament accounts for this belief, and you can read “What the Bible says and means about same-sex behavior” (from ReligiousTolerance.org, a site that aims to remain unbiased by providing different perspectives) if you would like to see where and why.*
HOWEVER, I do not believe that homosexuality should be as big of a deal as the American Christian church makes it out to be. I do not believe that it is a “bigger” sin than others — in the sense that sin is sin and all sin can be forgiven through the grace of God except for the unpardonable sin — and I know that I have committed much graver sins in my lifetime than homosexuality. (And this is coming from a person who has never been arrested, whose biggest illegal offense probably was trying pot a few times in college.)
For example, I believe that pride, as the very first sin ever committed, is a much more dangerous sin than homosexuality will ever be, especially because it affects practically everyone who has ever walked this earth, and it is one that I too struggle with on a daily basis.
I believe that genetics can affect a person’s sexual orientation. I believe that some people are “born this way.” And I believe that these are all results of original sin. (The ramifications of original sin are manifested spiritually and physically.)
What I do NOT believe is condemning others for their sins when it is only God who has the right to do so.** What I do NOT believe is withholding rights from the LGBTQ population.
So when it comes down for it, I am not against gay marriage.
I personally believe that in this day and age, the high rates of divorce are a much bigger
threat to the traditional Christian marriage than gay marriage. (image source)
At the same time, to me, as a Christian, the sacrament of marriage is one that can only be shared between one man and one woman. I believe that it is a promise to God that should strive to reflect the relationship between Christ and the Church. (I will be writing more about it in a future Reverent Sundays in a book review for Tim Keller’s The Meaning of Marriage.)
The sad thing is, though, that Christians are not the only people in existence. And while the very first marriage between Adam and Eve was indeed a religious one, their fall to sin initiated a chain of events that affected the rest of human history. So the fact of the matter is, marriage is no longer seen as a religious institution by a large portion of the population. That is to say, a Christian meaning of marriage is different from that of a non-religious person.
Should there exist different words for a religious marriage and a secular marriage (i.e., civil unions)? I’m not sure. But this is where we start to tread on the “separate but equal” territory, which I know has its limitations.
The only possible compromise I can think of is to make civil unions the officially recognized form of a lifelong commitment to a partner under the law. (Correct me if I’m wrong, but I believe some countries already do this.) And those who see marriage — or another applicable word — as being a religious institution can go ahead and have a religious ceremony in addition to a civil union, so that we could be married in the eyes of God in addition to being legally married.
I guess what I am saying is that yes, I am fully willing to go an extra step to be “married” in the Christian sense of the word.
Now don’t get me wrong. I am a firm believer in evangelizing and spreading God’s word. (Not only because it was commanded, but because I see it as such a great message that I truly want to share it with others.) However, I do not believe that forcing your beliefs down others’ throats is the best way to go about doing this. And spreading God’s Word through hate and violence? Definitely not the right way.
While I would love to see the entire world be true lovers and followers of Christ, I know that this is just not possible in this world.
Do I believe that a Christian can be gay? Yes, just as there are Christian adulterers, liars, and thieves. Do I condone their sins? No, but I do not actively condemn them either, unless that sin is harming others or the sinner continually places that sin ahead of God. Should gays be welcomed, loved, and embraced by the church? Abso-freakin-lutely!
I know that there exist so many gray areas within this debate. For example, many people state that what two consenting adults choose to do with their love lives should be of no one else’s concern. But how about in the cases of incest and polygamy, or even when people start marrying objects (e.g., the case of a man marrying a virtual person in Japan, or a woman marrying a building here in the U.S.)? And what about the argument that even as Jesus loved sinners, He also told them to “sin no more”?
The fact of the matter is, I know that my opinion is just one of many surrounding this topic. I also know that I could be very wrong, and that even if I had the best teachers and information available on hand, I could never fully comprehend God’s intentions and plans.
Additionally, I do not believe that the concept of gay marriage is one that is so devastating or threatening to the Christian faith. It is not a major doctrine or tenet of our belief. And whether or not a gay couple can get married does not negate the fact that an one and all-powerful God sent His only Son to die for us on the cross, and by this grace we are saved.
Besides, Jesus states that the two greatest commandments are to love God, and to love your neighbor as yourself. I think that whenever we, as Christians, are faced with situations in which we are not entirely sure how to act, we should always remember these.
* Recently there have been groups such as Soulforce that are challenging the traditional Christian view that homosexuality is a sin. I encourage you to read their article “What the Bible Says — And Doesn’t Say — About Homosexuality” in addition to the “What the Bible says and means about same-sex behavior” article I referenced above. After reading both articles (and others if needed) and praying about the topic, I encourage you to make your own decision regarding whether or not homosexuality is Biblically a sin.
What I will say is that Soulforce fails to mention God’s covenant design for marriage. Additionally, their assertion that “Only six or seven of the Bible’s one million verses refer to same-sex behavior in any way” is a bit disturbing when you consider that this is coming from someone who claims to have 50+ years of studying the Bible. The truth is that the Bible doesn’t even come close to having a million verses; it doesn’t even have a million words and the number of verses is closer to 31,000. I know that this is just one minor part of their argument, but one can’t help but question the scriptural authority of someone who has made such a mistake.
** The obvious exceptions to this statement are sins that impede on others’ rights to life, liberty, and happiness. And in most of these cases, our governments have constructed, and continue to enforce, laws so that there is no need for ordinary citizens to judge and convict.
ETA, 9:36am: I just realized that I have forgotten the usual header for Reverent Sundays, so I have gone ahead and added that. I will actually be out most of the day, so I will not be able to respond to any more comments until this evening or even tomorrow. Thank you for those who have commented so far!
I like books, gadgets, spicy food, and art. I dislike shopping, hot weather, and the laws of entropy. Although I am a self-proclaimed computer nerd, I still have a love for handbags and makeup... and I am always teetering on high heels. To learn more about me, visit the "About" page.
Hi,
I’m a long-time reader of your blog, was raised Christian (though no longer consider myself such) and am a lesbian.
First of all, I can tell that this post was thought out and written with compassion. When I was going through my own journey of learning about my sexuality and my relationship with my religion there was a long time when I believed almost exactly what you say here. It is a very understanding and liberal position for a straight, committed Christian who has not had to struggle internally with the issue of her sexual orientation.
I know you are writing specifically from a Christian perspective, and in that perspective you see homosexuality as a sin. I want to push you a little though. Please do not take offense, as I said, your post is obviously written with compassion.
When you began with “my views on homosexuality” I immediately balked. This is like a privileged white girl saying she is going to discuss “my views on asian-ness or immigration” something she feels entitled to have an opinion about, but which she has never experienced. By posting your “views” you are already judging gay people, even when you say that only God can do that. You say you see homosexuality as a sin like lying or adultery, but you would never create a post called “my views on liars”. Firstly because it would be kind of boring, and secondly because it’s not “cool” to have views on liars while it is very hip and progressive to have views on homosexuals. It is easy to simply be a nice person with a non-judgmental attitude and become very complacent in thinking that you are so progressive and open minded that gay people should be grateful to you for not judging them as harshly as the religious institution you support.
When Christians express their “liberal” views on homosexuality while still claiming to agree with the Church , it says two things:
1) I feel entitled to make judgments on other peoples’ identities.
2) Because my judgments are compassionate, or lenient, gay people should be grateful.
I am not arguing with any of your main points on marriage, as I said, it is clear you have thought about this and as long as you continue to do so, you will make a lot of progress. But I am pushing you to consider from WHERE your post stems. Remember, it’s not just what you say, but WHO you are while saying it that comes across to your long-time readers, and because of that, this post was a disappointment to me.
Thank you for your reply — I did not take offense at your comment at all and I believe you brought up some very valid points. But I do want to clarify that I do not believe that I am particularly progressive and open-minded in today’s sense of the words (maybe on some issues but not on all), nor do I believe gays should be grateful to me. In fact, I know that many people, gay and straight, would be disappointed or take offense at my position that I believe homosexuality is a sin, and that I may be considered by many to be bigoted and intolerant for saying so. Like I have stated in an earlier Reverent Sundays, I believe that all Christians should be BIBLICAL, not “conservative” or “liberal.” And I believe that this is the biblical stance on what is a hot-button topic today, and that is why I have chosen to share it.
As for where my post stems, as I have stated at the beginning of the post, I felt compelled to write it after reading what Jenna wrote, in addition to the fact that many commenters have asked me over the years what my views on homosexuality is as a Christian. I am sorry that you were disappointed, and I hope that you understand that my religion is a big part of my life and that I do not believe this was in any way a big revelation or a change in my stance on the issue. It honestly is what I believe to be the biblical way to interpret, and approach homosexuality, and while I may be wrong, I will not change my being a Christian.
I heart you. That is all.
This was a lovely post. Thank you for sharing!
I think the key point in this post is that not every American is a Christian. And while yes, this country was founded by a select group of Protestants, from the start it wasn’t all Christians. We had the Natives. And the African slaves. They were also here (and the Natives for quite some time prior to any Christian influence) and no matter what the church tells me, I don’t think I will ever agree that our nation should be 100% Christian. I lean toward a Universalist worldview. As such, I don’t believe our government should make laws purely from a Christian perspective. I think we should keep the basic principles in mind, but I think we shouldn’t let the modern notions of the religion be the “be all end all” of governmental policy.
Also, as someone who had a “civil union”, I would be pretty offended if a religious outsider came and told me it wasn’t a “marriage” because I didn’t do it in the eyes of God. From what I understand, God can be anywhere and see anything, so I’m pretty sure he was able to peek down into the courthouse. So I think a split in titles would cause ill-will to those not wanting a religious ceremony.
I thought this was a very well thought-out post, and explained your views beautifully. However I do think Janelle has a point. I live in Texas, and illegal immegration is a hot-button issue. I don’t think many would take too kindly to a post titled, “My Views on Illegal Immegration” but honestly, what else do you call it? I’m not calling you out, because frankly it’s what I would have titled it too. Maybe “My Take on the Christian Attitude Toward Homosexuality”?
Thanks, Brooke, for your thoughts on this issue. For what it’s worth, I wouldn’t mind changing the word “marriage” to solely mean a civil union (or at least one that is deemed legal by out government) and creating a separate word for the Christian ceremony that binds two people together. I’m not sure if that would make a difference at all — would that still cause ill will to those not wanting a religious ceremony?
Hi, you said that marriage should be between a man and a woman, exclusively. Then, I assume you are fine with a marriage between a man and a neo-woman (that is, someone who, for a chromosomic disorder, was born inter-sexed and assigned a wrong gender at birth). Am I correct? Do you even realize that there are INNATE conditions like Turner’s syndrome, Klinefelter’s syndrome where people are born inter-sexed? Have you ever thought, since you claim to be a computer nerd, that homosexuality is not a choice but something genetic, innate and not induced?
Tolerant? Intolerant? You tolerate a noisy neighbor, an obnoxious boss the horrible smell of your korean neighbour’s food downstairs, but you don’t have to tolerate gays. Tolerance presupposes nuisance. So, my dear macrocephalic friend, you don’t have to tolerate my ass.
The Bible does not explain how come god creates homosexuals if homosexuality is a sin. It’s the same as creating human beings with hunger, a primal need, and then saying that wanting food is a sin.
The bible is a translation of several previous translations. The first official bible in latin was La Vulgata, from Eusebius Sophronius Hieronymus, there are millions of inaccuracies, incongruences and yet a self proclaimed computer nerd chooses to believe it blindly.
Lastly, if gays are not allowed to marry, they shouldn’t pay taxes. How dare you put yourself on a pedistal and on a position of supremacy? How dare you! How would you feel if people told you that you shouldn’t marry because you are a 5’1” Asian with a head circumference of 60 cm and therefore you are macrocephalic? I hope with all my heart that if god exists you have transsexuals and homosexuals childredn, and then we will see if you dare to say the stupid things you have said here.
I think you are really misunderstanding her post. And you don’t have to be insulting or vulgar to make your point.
She is the one insulting when she says that being gay is a sin. Also, she doesn’t need lawyers, so, mind your business.
Lawyers? I’m responding because your comments offended me.
Thanks, Susan.
Wow it seems like you did not read the post carefully, or you just stopped reading as soon as you read the word “sin.” I will try to answer your points.
First, I never said that homosexuality is a choice. The post even says that I believe some people are born this way, and that genetics could play a part too. As for why some people are born this way? I guess the same can be asked of people with disabilities, babies who die at birth, people who are born into severe poverty, etc. It is a theological issue that can never be fully answered or understood by men, but it does all stem from original sin which is manifested both spiritually and physically (another point I included in the post).
Secondly, there exist former atheists who became Christians after doing research, just as there are former Chrstians who become atheists or turn to another religion. Your studies may haven shown you inaccuracies but mine led to further confirmations of my faith. I have read books and studies from both sides of the debate (again, referenced in the post above) — have you? If you have, and still managed to come to this conclusion, good for you. I just ask that you respect my decision as I respect yours.
Lastly, I never said gays should not marry. I believe we should all have equal rights regardless of our race, faith, sexual orientation, and such and the only exceptions should occur when another’s liberty, health or life is threatened.
These are all points I have made in the post and I ask that you read through it carefully before making such hateful comments.
Also, homosexuality was a sin, thousands of years ago, because every sexual act not aimed at procreation was a sin. So, the sin of homosexuals is the same degree of sin of you when you suck your husband’s penis or when you have sex not aimed at procreation.
Actually, according to the Bible, sex between a husband and wife is a beautiful act and its main purpose is not for procreation.
Will you please provide a Bible verse or two that supports your comment that sex is considered a beautiful act and not just for procreation?
Sure thing. (When we had premarital counseling by our old pastor, we had an entire session devoted to this topic!) The first that pops into my head is 1 Corinthians 7:3-5, where Paul encourages married couples not to refrain from sexual activity, and that they should give their “sexual rights” to each other. There’s also Proverbs 5:18-19 — “Let thy fountain be blessed, and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times, and be thou ravished always with her love.” And Song of Solomon talks about the joy of sexual pleasure within the bonds of marriage (this entire book is filled with so much sexually explicit content that ancient Jews forbade young men from reading it until they were 30).
While procreation is the first and primary role of married sex, the Bible clearly teaches us that there also exist other roles: pleasure/recreation, intimacy and unification, and demonstration of God’s love for His people.
Thanks a lot
Hope that you and your family feels better soon!
There is such harshness and anger in the tone of your comments. There’s no reason to be cruel or vulgar. If you have something to say, I say we all just keep a standard amount of class. Otherwise, you’re just basically screaming and shouting on a personal rant.
Do you have Netflix? If so, I strongly urge you to watch “Fish Out of Water.”
I disagree with your views. If you believe homosexuality is a sin, then you also must believe that cutting your hair (as a woman) is a sin. That wearing more than one type of fabric at a time is a sin. That having sex while pregnant, while infertile, while post-menopausal, while not ovulating, or while on birth control is a sin. That masturbating is a sin. That women must remain silent in church. That women are inferior to men. That women are weaker than men. That women can’t ever have authority over men.
My point is, you cannot pick and choose from the bible what is a sin and what is not. 100% of you christian’s who believe that homosexuality is a sin quote the same verses against homosexuality without actually critically thinking about those verses at all and using sources that already back you up to solidify your views.
The bible is grossly misinterpreted on this issue.
meh.
I also wanted to add that if your daughters (oh my god, no! Sinners!) were lesbian, trans, or queer and were forced to endure the terrible, bigoted, discriminatory treatment they would receive from people who share your views, you would change your mind.
You may not be the type of person who would commit hate crimes against a group of people you have no real knowledge of (other than, “oh, this behavior is icky IMO, and I see on this christian website that the bible agrees with me!), but your views are the same as those who do.
Felicia, I couldn’t agree more with you. They pick from the Bible only what is convenient for them. They keep quoting Leviticus but in Leviticus even eating shrimps was a sin. It’s actually too easy for this individual to say what is right and what is wrong, since she doesn’t have to deal with it.
Did you both read this post?
http://www.geekinheels.com/2012/01/22/reverent-sundays-cherry-picking-bible-verses.html
It specifically talks about taking the Bible context. People take the Bible out of context on BOTH SIDES – so if you’re saying that Christians take bible out of context, than you must admit that Non-Christians do the same. Unless the person is doing the actual legwork of looking the Greek/Hebrew terminology and know what exactly what was going on at that time (and who was talking, etc) then we can’t really interpret the Bible as we please. The hair cutting and the being silent at church for women is totally taken out of context. Context, context context!
I feel like this very round-about way of arguing doesn’t really get to the crux of the problem. When people keep bringing up little side arguments to prove their main argument, it doesn’t dis-prove or affirm anything. It makes everything more muddled and has very little to do with the main point. It creates a very defensive and huffy atmosphere that is unnecessary in the first place. Do we really want to talk about eating shrimp in the same conversation about gay marriage? I think that comparison is offensive in itself!
Very well-said, Carolee! Thank you!
No, it’s not the comparison offensive, it’s your repulsive rhetoric. Do you think you look smart or articulate by saying things such as “context” and devoiding these words of their meaning? You talk about context, context, context, and then, you don’t even make a point. It’s christians that have to prove non-christians wrong, and not the other way round. You talk about side arguments, main arguments, and still, why on Earth I should respect the bible when it says that homosexuality is a sin, but then, I can ignore it when it says that eating shrimps is a sin.
Fausta, I realize that you are very passionate about this issue. But you are missing Carolee’s point, and now you are just sounding angry and hateful. Please read what she has linked to above, because only then will you understand what we are talking about when we use the word “context.”
Um there’s nothing else to say because you’re obviously only reading what you want to read.
This is a perfect example of a “side argument” that I was discussing before. Do you see how we’re talking about THIS (you said, I said) versus us REALLY discussing the original topic at hand? Weren’t we talking about homosexuality? How come we’re dancing around these other topics like proving things wrong or how I’m trying to sound smart. Who cares?
So… yeah. Context.
This is a question I have encountered many time before, and I even considered including it in the post. If my daughters were gay, I would love them the same. Yes, I would tell them that I believe it is a sin, but would let them know that I would love them no matter what. Would I fight for their rights to be treated equally by others and the law? Yes, but the only exception would be for their being “married” under the eyes of the Christian God for the reasons stated in the post. I know that the “hate the sin, love the sinner” concept can be difficult to grasp when you are not a Christian, btu I firmly stand by this. Just as I love my husband who is a sinner, my other family members who are sinners, and friends who are sinners. And just how they love me despite my being a sinner too, because we ALL have sinned and fall short the glory of God.
Felicia, I encourage you to read a post I wrote about this very topic: cherry-picking Bible verses. http://www.geekinheels.com/2012/01/22/reverent-sundays-cherry-picking-bible-verses.html
There, you will see what I say to your argument.
Wow jinx!! I just posted that comment with that link!
I have always loved reading your blog and welcome your beliefs about homosexuality, regardless of whether or not I agree with them. What upsets me greatly about this post is this sentence: “The sad thing is, though, that Christians are not the only people in existence.” I can’t respect this point of view, and I do have to say that I think less of you for stating it. Our world is better— infinitely better— because of that fact that it’s made up of many different kinds of people who believe many different kinds of things.
Hmm I think I should have been more clear with my intentions behind this sentence. I too, believe that the world is more interesting — and in some cases, better and more beautiful — because of all our differences. When I stated, “The sad thing is” what I meant to be the “sad thing” is the fact that we can’t all agree, NOT the fact that we are not all Christians. I’m sorry if the meaning wasn’t clear, as I had used the phrase as a form of speech, not to convey genuine sadness.
it’s “clearer” and not “more clear”
Now you’re just finding things to nitpick.
Sorry my grammar wasn’t perfect in the comment above, as I wrote it earlier today, on my phone, sitting next to my father as he lay in bed in the hospital. As you can imagine, I was a bit distracted.
Like the poster before me said, I’m really hurt by your statement that “The sad thing is, though, that Christians are not the only people in existence.”
I think what is truly sad is that there are people in this world, like you, that truly believe that everyone should believe just what they believe.
I am Jewish woman and I no longer will be reading your blog.
Alisha, I am sorry you took offense at that phrase and I truly apologize, as it is not what I meant. This is what I wrote to the commeter above:
Hmm I think I should have been more clear with my intentions behind this sentence. I too, believe that the world is more interesting — and in some cases, better and more beautiful — because of all our differences. When I stated, “The sad thing is” what I meant to be the “sad thing” is the fact that we can’t all agree, NOT the fact that we are not all Christians. I’m sorry if the meaning wasn’t clear, as I had used the phrase as a form of speech, not to convey genuine sadness.
In hindsight, I should have used another phrase to convey my meaning as it’s now clear that more than just one person took offense at that comment.
Wow. I don’t even know where to begin.
I appreciate your viewpoints and I respect it but I, as an Asian who was raised Catholic, also disagree. Your post is thoughtful. At first I thought it came across as close-minded but after much though I realize that you are just completely mind-baffling. It’s just mind-baffling that you’re able to pick and choose what to believe in. You give your viewpoint that obviously belittles another viewpoint yet you still somewhat believe/enjoy/engage in what you just belittled?
Little things like…
- How can you authentically value other people as you claim to be able to do when you clearly state that non-Christians are beneath you?
- How can you be proud of your Korean heritage when certain Korean and Christian traditions and values conflict? Do you only pick the traditions and values that don’t conflict with your Christian beliefs? Do you see your fellow non-Christian Koreans and your ancestors to be beneath you?
- And, perhaps the most mind-baffling of all!!! How are you able enjoy Star Wars and spread God’s word when the Bible denounces magic?! Is it because Star Wars isn’t real (but witchcraft is)?
Maddy, I think that you have not fully understood many of my posts, and/or you’re taking things out of context. I will try my best to address your questions:
1. I never stated that I believe non-Christians to be beneath me. If anything, I know many non-Christians who have higher morals, are more intelligent, in higher social standing, etc. than me. Just because I call something a sin does not mean that I believe the person committing the sin to be beneath me.
2. Yes, I am proud of my Korean heritage. But (luckily) I have not encountered many instances where my Korean and Christian traditions and values conflict. And when I do, I place Christianity first. Can you tell me instances where it seems like I’m putting my Korean heritage before my faith? As for putting my non-Christian Koreans and ancestors to be beneath me, please see my response to #1.
3. Star Wars, like Harry Potter and LOTR and others of similar fantasy genres, are pure ENTERTAINMENT. Do I enjoy them? Sure. But do I believe in The Force, the type of witchcraft practiced in the HP, and such? No, and nor do I even wish them to be true. It is true that some Christians choose to distance themselves from these genres because their faith is adversely affected. But I am not one of them. However, if I ever catch my faith being affected by these genres, you can be sure that I will stop watching/reading/writing about them.
Wow, I truly can’t believe some of the responses I’m reading. When in the hell did she say non-Christians were beneath her? You seriously think Star Wars is about magic?! I’m completely baffled by how ridiculous your response is.
I resonate with a lot of your points in this post, and its something I’ve been thinking and praying a lot about recently. Our pastor preached the best sermon I’ve ever heard on this topic from Romans 1 today so this post is timely! (in case you’re interested it will posted here: http://www.newlife-pca.com/audio.php)
While there are few points I’d take a slight diversion on in this post, I’m glad you wrote it.
Something my pastor mentioned has helped me think about why Christians make homosexuality such a big deal (although some do it in wrong and unhelpful ways). It is because the relationship between man and the woman is a reflection of the gospel message. When that gets distorted, God’s gospel becomes less clear.
I read Jenna’s post and while I think it is interesting and helpful to look more critically at the issues, she seemed to (and many Mormons do) look at it from a personal revelation or personal conviction standpoint rather critically reading and believing what the Bible actually teaches.
Anyway, I don’t blog about topics like this because I find it incredibly difficult to state the entire Christian perspective on the matter biblically, while also maintaining a gracious tone in a blog post – speaking the truth in love. Thanks, as usual, for taking the time to say it!
Ditto what Latte said.
Also – I find you very brave. It is much easier to post about this subject when you know that most readers will celebrate you for doing so. It is much harder to post when you know you will receive angry and hateful comments. Thanks for standing up and speaking up.
Thank you, Beka. This was a difficult post to write for exactly the reasons you stated. I know that the vast majority of my readers will disagree rather than agree with my stance on this issue, but I am glad for having written it so that those who read this can be exposed to opposing views, whether they choose to accept it or not.
Thank you for taking the time to comment — I was actually hoping that you would because I love hearing other Christians’ views on this issue. I will definitely listen to the sermon you have link to!
I want to echo Beka’s comments above. I really respect and appreciate your honest post, putting yourself out there while being open to hear others’ thoughts and opinions. I also like how you have carefully thought about these issues and hold onto what you believe, while expressing them in light of God’s love and grace.
It’s always interesting to me how different people read the same document and come up with completely unique points of view. There is much baggage in the comments, just as I believe there is much baggage inherent in your post (and along life’s journey, we ALL have baggage!).
This is a personal blog; I disagree with you some but what I think really doesn’t matter. This blog is about you, and that’s cool with me. You didn’t lose this reader by being honest; I can agree to disagree.
I respect that you’re challenging yourself and the beliefs of not only you but the many communities of which you are a part. That willingness is very important.
Thanks, Marcie, for agreeing to disagree! Your comment means a lot to me.
What I like about both your post and Jenna’s is the admission that ultimately you don’t have all the answers, but having a fall back position of love is a good start. With that, I heartily agree. I also agree that we should separate the state marriage contract with the church’s – when I got married I just thought it was weird that our priest was, for that hour, a representative of the state. (But even as a kid I had strong feelings about that – seeing an American flag in church, for instance, has always made me uncomfortable). You’re right that in other countries (France is what I’m most familiar with because my cousin was married there), there is a state ceremony followed by, if desired, a church one. That makes a lot of sense to me.
Thanks for posting your thoughts on this, and for being open to comments.
I’ve been reading your blog for a long time and I have to tell you I am disappointed with your argument.
I believe that everyone has a right to their own opinions but your argument does not make any sense.
You say that being gay is a sin and then go on to say that you believe people can be born gay.
Well if God makes man, and that man happens to be gay, how can it be a sin if God made him that way?
Because of original sin. As I have stated in the post, original sin is manifested both spiritually and physically and affects every human aside from Christ.
Ugh, I almost don’t want to comment because this is such a heated issue and it seems like people would rather listen to what they think they hear people saying than what they actually say, but I wanted to give you kudos for writing it.
I think it’s completely legitimate to talk about “my views on homosexuality”, because there are so many Christians now who are deciding that it simply isn’t a sin, contrary to God’s word (in both the OT and NT — Paul mentions homosexuality several times in lists of sins for Christians to avoid).
I don’t know if as a fellow Christian (and even also PCA, which I thought I remembered you are as well?) I totally agree. I certainly agree with needing more love towards homosexuals from Christians, and liked Jenna’s point of not defining them by who they want to have intimate relationships with. I don’t know how I feel about the genetic component, mostly because all I’ve ever heard in defense of it is people shouting down those who don’t believe in it, not being informative about the research. I also don’t know how I feel about legalizing gay marriage. Your position is compelling to me, but one that would be very difficult for me to embrace openly due to family/church expectations.
But thank you for opening yourself up to the firestorm and giving a thoughtful, reasoned perspective on such a hot issue. I was at a funeral this weekend for a dear professor at my alma mater, and in the program they printed his favorite verses: “[B]ut in your hearts regard Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect, having a good conscience, so that, when you are slandered, those who revile your good behavior in Christ may be put to shame.” 1 Peter 3:15-16. I think your post was well within the spirit of these verses.
Thank you for your honest thoughts on this issue! I completely understand what you are saying, and I’m glad that we can agree to disagree on those points. I also wanted to thank you for that verse, as today was a very difficult day for me (not because of this post but many other things), and it gave me renewed hope.
Normally i just skip the reverend sunday posts, but this subject triggered me to read it for a change. The subject itself, ‘homosexuality’ or ‘christianity’ doesn’t really interest me, but that ‘homosexuality’ should be judged in any light. Perhaps, as an atheist, I can not (or will ever) understand how much ‘homosexuality’ is an influence in any of the lives of ‘heterosexual christians’. It’s good to have an opinion about everything going on in the world. But (and just to state it clearly, since some of the people commenting seem to go mad about the subject and other people’s view..This is MY POINT OF VIEW)…As we in general, including GLB community and what not, do not comment on heterosexuals for the love they bare for someone of another sex, why feel the need to judge (whether positive or negative) just for having that similar love for the same sex?
It was stated in the post that people have asked you about your view of this subject. All i can say on that part is, not every subject needs to be touched merely because it was asked. I see praise from some commenters about daring to touch the subject. I’d rather not give you kudos on the subject itself. However, being aware of what storm these sort of things create, receiving rude comments ( hope mine isnt one of them), and manage to reply in such grace is very admiring
No, your comment was not rude at all, and I very much appreciate it.
You do bring up a good point that we do not need to answer to every question/prodding, and your question (rhetorical or not) about why the GLB community does not comment or question heterosexuals for their sexual orientation is also thought-provoking, and is something I would need to think and pray about. Thank you for your respectful comment!
I commend you for posting this blog entry and handling all the comments very well.
Tim Keller’s view on homosexuality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LTwugmG4hoA&feature=related
Tim Keller is a pastor at Redeemer Church in Manhattan. I think his view represents a lot of Christians’ view in the US.
I have watched this video in the past, but I will watch it again soon — thanks for the reminder! On a related note, I love Tim Keller’s sermons and the church that we currently attend was actually planted by Redeemer.
Ditto what LatteLove and some other posters have said. I have wrestled with my thoughts about this for some time as well, and I thought that you were able to communicate them in a way that was clear AND loving. You are brave for posting this.
I respect your viewpoint – or rather your right to have that point of view. And after reading through the post, the comments, and being a fan of your blog for a long time, I can’t help but feel that the post has impacting my feelings about you. It’s not that I’ll stop reading. It’s not that I think you a bigot. And actually, if you had spoken out against homosexuality for any other reason, I might be more receptive to your supporting argument. For me, a straight, american woman, raise in a Catholic home, I am baffled. Not particularly by you. But by the conviction of religion in general. This isn’t the forum to debate faith, but I can’t help but feel uncomfortable when people put so much blind faith in.. faith. I guess I don’t get it. I don’t get it because I have never been one to let someone (or Someone) choose my opinions. I think religion could be a wonderful thing for those who need it. I, myself, don’t get it. And at this point in my life, I have let myself slip back into the TRADITION Christianity gives me – family traditions, holidays, general peace – reading something like this, sets me back. A well-spoken, well-educated, funny, smart, relatively liberal woman bases her decision on a topic on a book and building… I don’t comprehend that.
I guess the difference is that to me (and other Christians), our faith is just not about a book and a building. It saturates every aspect of our lives and we find so much joy, hope, and love in it, and I honestly look forward to the day I die and can meet God. As I have stated in the post, I have done much research into various religions and actually found much support and evidence for the Christian faith. I don’t know how long you have been reading my blog, but I encourage you to read the following past entries:
http://www.geekinheels.com/2010/08/20/i-am-not-a-christian-because-im-scared-of-hell.html
http://www.geekinheels.com/2010/05/24/if-we-had-all-the-answers-we-wouldnt-need-faith.html
As for calling me “relatively liberal,” as I have stated in a previous Reverent Sundays, I personally am not one for these labels because there are parts of the Christian faith that call us to be “conservative” by today’s definition of the word, as well as those that call us to be “liberal.” But on a related note, I’m pretty sure most Christians will agree that back in His day, Jesus would have been considered radically liberal by His contemporaries.
Jenny, I also find you very brave for posting this and respect you even more for responding to some of the more heated comments with grace. I thought you were very clear, but can see how some of the lingo can get lost in translation between Christians and non-Christians.
I’m with you in that I totally think homosexuals deserve the same rights that heterosexuals get from a marriage union. I believe in the separation of church and state, and I think this whole issue would be less confusing/complicated if we completely stopped using the term “marriage” and called it “civil unions” for everyone! I like what one poster wrote above about how France does it (did not know this!) – where they have essentially two unions… one that everyone submits to under the government/law, then another under the church and god for those who have religious beliefs.
I think it’s the WORD “marriage” that trips everyone up… based on discussions I’ve had with my homosexual friends, they just want the equal right to live and love freely with the same rights that heterosexuals have. Who are we (Christians) to judge that and take that away from them? You put it very well, saying that we are all sinners, and homosexuality is no worse a sin than the many other sins we ALL fall prey to on a daily basis.
We ALL struggle with sin – we are fallen/broken people… and it always takes me back to this verse: “let he who is without sin cast the first stone…”
I am not a Christian, although I respect the beliefs of others just as I respect people’s rights to express and celebrate their sexuality, but I was very interested in reading this perspective on gay marriage from an Evangelical believer. It’s all to easy for secular folk like myself to write off the views of those following a doctrine as knee-jerk reactionism – my father is an Evangelical Christian and I do not share his views on many, many things! You’ve obviously given the matter a lot of thought and come to a personal conclusion- and after all, peace is one of the central tents of Christianity (or so I recall from Sunday school long ago) so all the arguing over something that really doesn’t matter all that much, and doesn’t cause anyone harm, does always strike me as somewhat pointless.
Thank you so much for your comment, and for taking the time to carefully read what I wrote, even if we disagree! You’re right that people tend to have knee-jerk reactions to certain topics, and I confess that I am guilty of this as well, so I commend you for your reaction and input.
Does AIDS seem pointless? I would say it’s fairly important especially as it affects over 20% of our population in America with over 70% of that being the homosexual community. http://aids.gov/hiv-aids-basics/hiv-aids-101/statistics/ I’m thinking it’s a bit more important than people who push it aside as “not my choice/problem” realize. Not only that, it is morally wrong. My uncle is married to another male, and even he, (he is probably the smartest man I know: he knows something about everything) will confess that it is wrong.
You’re a bible thumping freak show. First of all, Adam and Eve weren’t real people. It’s a made up, fictional story just like everything else in the bible. Everything’s a sin to you losers. I guarantee you sin on a daily basis. Christians are fucking crazy. Why can’t you people just let other people live however they want? How is two men or two women getting married affecting you in any way? Why would you give two shits if I wanted to marry a tree? Shut the fuck up, live your own life, and stop trying to govern everybody else’s life. You’re a douche.
Chuck, if you had bothered to read my post in its entirety you would know that I do admit that I sin every day and that I probably have committed much more dangerous sins in my lifetime than homosexuality. I have also stated in the post that I believe in equal rights for gays, including marriage. Like other posters above, please read carefully before jumping to conclusions.
Chuck, instead of resorting to the lowest of impulses like name calling, maybe back your position up with fact, information, or some form of intelligent thought?
I’m always amused when evangelicals state their “position” on homosexuality. It’s like stating a “position” on gravity.
An argument that presupposes the truth of Genesis is one that relies on the following “facts”:
1. human beings can be spontaneously formed out of dirt/magic
2. fruit has supernatural powers of enlightenment
Why anyone with a modicum of sense still believes these stone age myths is mystifying.
Actually, I do not believe in magic nor fruit with supernatural powers. But thanks for sharing that with us.
No? How were Adam and Eve created, then? And what happened when Eve ate the apple?
You believe a story telling you that an omnipotent deity blew into some dust and poof! a grown man appeared.
You also believe a story telling you a woman ate an apple and poof! suddenly had a new understanding of the world.
Sure sounds like magic to me…
You say it’s magic, I say it’s divine acts of God. I’ll repeat what I said to Fausta above: there exist former atheists who became Christians after doing research, just as there are former Christians who become atheists or turn to another religion. Your experiences may have indicated that Christianity is a religion for fools, but mine led to further confirmations of my faith. I have read books and studies from both sides of the debate — have you? If you have, and still managed to come to this conclusion, then good for you. I just ask that you respect my decision as I respect yours.
P.S. — If you write in a real email address instead of an obviously fake one, and check the “Notify me of follow-up comments via e-mail” box below the comment form, you won’t need to keep refreshing the page to look for a response. I promise I won’t email you (unless you want me to), and I promise I won’t share your email address with anyone else either. I just thought this might be easier on you.
Actually, some of us don’t need to read “books and studies” before deciding that snakes can’t talk.
Nah, I don’t mind checking back, but thanks for the offer!
How do you know that they once didn’t, in a place that was vastly different from this world?
Just so I’m clear, your argument is “You can’t prove snakes didn’t once talk”?
LOL
You win, seriously. Homos are sinners. Snakes used to talk. We all have been enlightened here today.
Ann, we could get into hours, days, even YEARS of debates here. I was just merely providing an answer to your point. No, I cannot prove that serpents once conversed with men. But I also cannot prove other things we all believe to be universal truths. One of my favorite quotes is, “If we had all the answers, we wouldn’t need faith.” Do you live SOLELY on things you need proof for?
I would provide you with a link to theological debates and such, but I have a feeling you won’t check them. And I have a feeling that no matter what I write, you’ll just write it off as the ranting of a religious fanatic. So let’s just agree to disagree and save us both some time and trouble.
Besides, my youngest is stirring from her nap and I can’t stay online much longer. Hope you have a great weekend!
Jenny, I’ve been a longtime reader, and after reading through your entry and the ensuing maelstrom of comments, I felt the need to chime in and leave an encouraging note. First, to echo what several others have said – kudos for having the courage to state your faith-based position on homosexuality. As soon as you hit the ‘post’ button, you left yourself open and vulnerable to those who might attack your beliefs and viewpoints. I was particularly impressed, not so much by the entry (though it was obviously thought through and carefully worded), but in the manner of grace with which you responded with kindness to even the most vicious comments here. If anything, that has left me with a clearer picture of your Christlike character.
I know there are a lot of people who see Christians as those who are attacking gays and homosexuals and I’m terribly saddened that (1) followers of Christ are perceived that way, and (2) that there really ARE many who use their faith and salvation to attack others in that manner. We haven’t been called to condemn; rather to be an example of God’s love. I know how much the Church as a whole must have hurt the gay community when many of them respond to Christians with defensiveness, aggressiveness, and ugly vulgarity. But thank you for being one of the few to show the truer, gentler way of Christ’s love, even while stating and defending your faith perspective.
Thanks so much for your willingness to discuss such a difficult subject…it is in the archives as I’ve stumbled across it, but wanted to say some things. I thoroughly appreciate a Christian’s thoughtful and introspective approach to understanding things that are complicated to understand. It is important to me to understand things rightly and I think in order to reach that much thought, study of the bible and other helpful documents and books, and prayer is necessary. I can attest to the fact that my position has changed, or evolved the longer I am a Christian as a result of this…I’m on the cusp of a huge shift as I type this response. In 2002 I became a Christian. I looked into the bible and heard the call and gave my heart to Jesus. I had been living as a lesbian for a number of years and was told that the bible condemns homosexuality or homosexual behavior, to be clear. I immediately set myself on a course of “deliverance” and “inner healing” to become like a regular Christian, I really believed I was deceived and was demonically influenced. I wanted all the same things as other Christian’s had. My story doesn’t really start there, but for the sake of brevity. So for the next couple of years and dedicated ministry I tried really hard to be “heterosexual”, or ex-gay, I banished the thought of same sex attractions as they came up, had a relationship with a man, where sexual intimacy was part of our relationship, though mostly contrived. It wasn’t until the reality of my unhappiness and admissions of my struggles in that relationship did I realize that I wasn’t meant to be with men…it wasn’t a true or comfortable fit for me. In spite of my denouncement of homosexuality in the church, it just wasn’t the truth for me and try as I did the deliverance and inner healing failed. I was a lesbian, and there wasn’t any changing that, why would God change it if he made me this way? A confirmation of his love become apparent to me having gone through everything that I had, I felt a rush of love so intense, I knew he didn’t leave me or forsake me, the bible tells me that, but in this particular scenario I didn’t initially believe it. My struggles are with some of the doctrinal teachings throughout my Christian years regarding homosexuality. How can I be authentically me and still wholeheartedly be “in” the church? I’ve been struggling with this since coming out for the second time in August 2011 when I fell head over heels in love with a woman. Recently I came out to a cousin who I really love and was surprised to have my relationship completely discounted by her with all the usual scriptural references being “lovingly” thrown at me, as well as the all too common, I’m being deceived by the devil. All at the same time saying how much she loves me that she’s pointing me to these passages all to affect change in my heart. As if I’m going to reply back to her thanking her for her guidance and once again try to change who I am. It was really kind of ludicrous and hurtful to tell you the truth. I’ve been blessed to have a strong foundation in the gospels, all the while overcoming some untruths that I bought along the way. I’m currently going to an awesome church with a pastor that believes like you, but does not judge. He hugs me and my girlfriend every week after church and is kind and gentle…but doesn’t water down anything from the pulpit. The venomous attacks though of some Christians, like my cousin is very hurtful, it makes it clear to me why some of the young gay/lesbian/transgendered teens experience when they believe in God/Jesus, and don’t want to forsake him to be true to themselves. Fortunately I’m much older and more able to deal with the backlash. The most difficult thing that I realized recently was that when gays/lesbians are discriminated against in this way by the church, and they don’t have a strong relationship with Jesus, they don’t feel like they have anywhere else to go. I know that I love the woman I am with. I love Jesus more than anything, so I will spend the rest of my life trying to be authentically me, naked and unashamed in front of my Lord. At the same time seeking clarity through His word and prayer to better understand Him as he helps me to understand me. So all that to say, that I respect and appreciate your evolving position, I too am evolving…maybe a little more painfully than you as it is real close to home. But I would never condemn someone for having an opinion, and I love the way you’ve handled people that have been less than nice to you here, you handled it with grace and love. I love the book by Gregory Boyd, Repenting of Religion, there is concept that comes to mind from the book, and that is about God ascribing unsurpassable to worth to all mankind, we would all do better to keep that in mind when interacting with each other, I’m not loving him if I’m devaluing you.
Jenny,
I came back to read this post and have to tell you what a beautiful job you did with this post. In the challenging task of explaining your position on this subject, you walked in love and helped me make sense of this arguement. I do miss your Reverent Sunday posts – hope to see more of them soon!
I’ve just discovered your blog, and this is the second post I’ve read (first was the one about cherry-picking scripture). I’ve tried for ages to explain my point of view on homosexuality, as per my faith, and have never been able to state it as eloquently as you have. Thank you.
While I agree with some of your views, I can’t help but notice detrimental contradictions in your essay. You say no sin is bigger than any other, yet you say that you have committed GRAVER sins? So your sins are worse? bigger maybe? And then you describe pride as more dangerous, or bigger just different terminology. I understand that people are quite wrapped up in the idea of love everybody and don’t step on any toes, but God is very explicit about homosexuality in the Bible and, God does have a list of detestable and even (like you mentioned) and unforgivable sin. So it would appear as though some sins are, in fact, have more serious consequences, are more dangerous, or bigger. (whatever wording you prefer). And as for “genetics”….well I could right a book. Assuming you believe in the fall of man (sin through Adam and Eve) I would assume you realize the implications are that all people are born with a sinful nature. (In other words, its hereditary) so all sin is “genetic” if you so choose to be that liberal with the word. In any case its no excuse or diminishing reason to gently tolerate homosexuality. And while I don’t believe violence or hate crimes are the answer, I do believe we see God as severely just, time and time again in the Bible. All I’m saying is love them as Christ loves them but please don’t just pardon the sin under “genetics” rather encourage them to fully pursue God and for “He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from ALL unrighteousness.”
Oh and I happened to be researching about miracles today and this website came up so that’s how I got to this page and I wanted to know who writes these and what their credentials are (for citation purposes).
Mrs. Geek in Heel in the bible it says no sin is greater then another and a sin is a sin. My view on homosexuality is that it is wrong and is a sin. I think marriage is between a man and a women and it also states that in the bible. But I also feel that it is wrong for some ” Christians ” to disown or abuse them or just treat them in a bad way because they are also human. I also think that it is wrong for a person that are gay or anything else but straight that call themselves ” Christians” and they think that what they are doing is right and it not a sin. In my point of view I think think you should not pinpoint what you what to believe what is right or what you believe and what is wrong or what you do not believe in the bible. Because the bible is not for a person to dissect it, it ( the bible) is their to teach others and I know this is off topic but the church is not meant to be separated into different forms of Christianity.( Amish, Mennonite, Anglican, Roman Catholic, or Mormon) Jesus and he disciples didn’t create different forms of Christianity that only believe in what they believe in, no they where under one belief. I just don’t understand why there is so many different branches of Christianity it should only be one like it was in the biblical times.( do not get me wrong I do not hate or dislike gays or lesbians and etc… it is just from my beliefs and what I believe is that what they are doing is a sin.)
P.S. When it comes to gay marriage in America I think that Christians should not sugar coat what they believe or be scared what the media says I think they should fight what they believe in because Christians need to be strong because it is getting close when Jesus come.